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A thread on 5ch’s “Nandemo Jikkyo G” board asked why Deep Impact, the 2005 Triple Crown winner, is still talked about today as Japan’s strongest racehorse ever. Posters argued that it’s not just his racing record — his legacy as a sire, producing heavyweights like Contrail and Gran Alegria, puts him in a class of his own — while others pointed to Orfevre’s runner-up finish at the Arc de Triomphe as proof of real strength abroad. The discussion widened into the history of racehorse popularity, with the sheer mania around Oguri Cap, once dubbed a full-blown social phenomenon, being cited as even bigger than the Deep Impact boom.
What people said
It's a mystery, honestly.
Be real, Orfevre was probably faster.
Be real, Orfevre was probably faster.
He was the most popular horse at the absolute peak of the horse-racing boom, so maybe that's why he gets mythologized and treated as a legend.
Re: #2
There wasn't even a horse-racing boom in Deep Impact's era.
If anything, sales were in bad shape, so JRA overexposed him in the media trying to manufacture popularity.
On top of that he was rock-solid and won in a memorable way, so of course casual fans loved him.
Orfevre, meanwhile, came up when the whole country was consumed by the [2011] earthquake and had no bandwidth to care, plus his record was shaky with a lot of losses — no wonder he never won over casual fans.
There wasn't even a horse-racing boom in Deep Impact's era.
If anything, sales were in bad shape, so JRA overexposed him in the media trying to manufacture popularity.
On top of that he was rock-solid and won in a memorable way, so of course casual fans loved him.
Orfevre, meanwhile, came up when the whole country was consumed by the [2011] earthquake and had no bandwidth to care, plus his record was shaky with a lot of losses — no wonder he never won over casual fans.
There was real excitement back then.
And after that I just stopped watching racing altogether.
And after that I just stopped watching racing altogether.
Re: #3
It's not really about the era.
Though yeah, the Deep Impact boom really was on the level of a genuine social phenomenon.
It's not really about the era.
Though yeah, the Deep Impact boom really was on the level of a genuine social phenomenon.
I mean, compared to Deep Impact's offspring, Orfevre's kids are total scrubs lmaooooo
Re: #4
Deep Impact's offspring:
・Contrail
・Gran Alegria
・Gentildonna
Orfevre's offspring:
・Lucky Lilac
・Epokadoro
・Ushba Tesoro
Yeah okay, that gap is brutal.
Deep Impact's offspring:
・Contrail
・Gran Alegria
・Gentildonna
Orfevre's offspring:
・Lucky Lilac
・Epokadoro
・Ushba Tesoro
Yeah okay, that gap is brutal.
Re: #4
Are you a total horse-racing novice or something?
There's no point even comparing them.
Are you a total horse-racing novice or something?
There's no point even comparing them.
So which horse was the most popular of all time?
Re: #24
If we're just talking pure popularity, it's easy.
Oguri Cap, by an absolute landslide, in the entire history of Japanese racing.
Even the mighty Deep Impact boom doesn't stand a chance against the Oguri Cap boom.
If we're just talking pure popularity, it's easy.
Oguri Cap, by an absolute landslide, in the entire history of Japanese racing.
Even the mighty Deep Impact boom doesn't stand a chance against the Oguri Cap boom.
Re: #27
Oguri Cap was really that overwhelmingly popular, huh.
Like a Toyotomi Hideyoshi type of figure?
Oguri Cap was really that overwhelmingly popular, huh.
Like a Toyotomi Hideyoshi type of figure?
Re: #45
If you're using warlords as the comparison, Oguri Cap's popularity was Oda Nobunaga level [Japan's most famous unifier-warlord].
That's how far ahead of everyone else he was.
It was completely normal to see high school girls carrying Oguri Cap plush keychains.
He reached people who otherwise never watched or cared about horse racing at all.
And this was in an era with nothing like the game Uma Musume to hook young people in, so it really was an abnormal level of popularity.
If you're using warlords as the comparison, Oguri Cap's popularity was Oda Nobunaga level [Japan's most famous unifier-warlord].
That's how far ahead of everyone else he was.
It was completely normal to see high school girls carrying Oguri Cap plush keychains.
He reached people who otherwise never watched or cared about horse racing at all.
And this was in an era with nothing like the game Uma Musume to hook young people in, so it really was an abnormal level of popularity.
Re: #45
They say if Oguri Cap hadn't existed, things like horse plush toys, printing horse names on betting slips, and horse-racing video games either wouldn't exist at all, or would've shown up much later and stayed a niche thing — and racing itself would've kept its old shady, disreputable image.
He's credited with literally changing both the image and the way horse racing is done in Japan.
They say if Oguri Cap hadn't existed, things like horse plush toys, printing horse names on betting slips, and horse-racing video games either wouldn't exist at all, or would've shown up much later and stayed a niche thing — and racing itself would've kept its old shady, disreputable image.
He's credited with literally changing both the image and the way horse racing is done in Japan.
Orfevre's less consistent.
He's basically an upgraded Gold Ship [a famously brilliant but wildly erratic champion], isn't he?
He's basically an upgraded Gold Ship [a famously brilliant but wildly erratic champion], isn't he?
Re: #32
Come on, comparing Orfevre to Gold Ship is a stretch.
They're just not in the same league.
Come on, comparing Orfevre to Gold Ship is a stretch.
They're just not in the same league.
If only Equinox had taken a shot at the Arc de Triomphe.
You really do need to go chase that dream, or you just don't come up much in the greatest-ever debates.
You really do need to go chase that dream, or you just don't come up much in the greatest-ever debates.
Re: #35
That swamp-like heavy turf needs a horse built specifically for it.
According to jockey Yutaka Take, if you had to name one, Kitasan Black might've had a shot.
That swamp-like heavy turf needs a horse built specifically for it.
According to jockey Yutaka Take, if you had to name one, Kitasan Black might've had a shot.
I wouldn't call him the strongest ever.
His raw stamina is probably the best of all time, though.
But he folds under pressure in a duel and probably struggles getting boxed in — like he's missing that last reserve of grit.
In a race where every single entrant was a greatest-ever candidate, I think he'd lose.
His raw stamina is probably the best of all time, though.
But he folds under pressure in a duel and probably struggles getting boxed in — like he's missing that last reserve of grit.
In a race where every single entrant was a greatest-ever candidate, I think he'd lose.
Re: #40
There are different kinds of stamina too, you know.
There's the type that grinds rivals down in a head-to-head battle, the type that sets a pace up front that breaks everyone else, and the type that can sustain one long final drive.
If the read on him is 'folds under pressure,' doesn't that clash with calling his stamina enormous?
There are different kinds of stamina too, you know.
There's the type that grinds rivals down in a head-to-head battle, the type that sets a pace up front that breaks everyone else, and the type that can sustain one long final drive.
If the read on him is 'folds under pressure,' doesn't that clash with calling his stamina enormous?
This one really hits home for the 'White Lightning' Sylphide generation [Sylphide: an early-1990s champion sprinter mare nicknamed for her grey coat].
Re: #47
Haha, Sylphide, now there's a name I haven't heard in ages.
Yeah, actually Sylphide and Deep Impact did run in a similar style — both were closers with a big late kick.
Haha, Sylphide, now there's a name I haven't heard in ages.
Yeah, actually Sylphide and Deep Impact did run in a similar style — both were closers with a big late kick.
I don't know much about this, but if they're running on the same track, isn't there a recorded time?
Whoever's fastest is the strongest, no?
Whoever's fastest is the strongest, no?
Re: #57
You can't just compare them by raw times like that.
There's stuff like the fast-track-conditions issue that throws off any simple comparison.
You can't just compare them by raw times like that.
There's stuff like the fast-track-conditions issue that throws off any simple comparison.
Re: #48
Same deal as Equinox's Takarazuka Kinen — Deep Impact's stamina was so absurd that he could avoid the pack, swing wide around the outside with room to spare, and still win.
But if the other 17 horses were also all-time-great candidates, he probably couldn't pull that off and still win.
Actually, that same weakness is what showed when Heart's Cry caught him off guard.
Same deal as Equinox's Takarazuka Kinen — Deep Impact's stamina was so absurd that he could avoid the pack, swing wide around the outside with room to spare, and still win.
But if the other 17 horses were also all-time-great candidates, he probably couldn't pull that off and still win.
Actually, that same weakness is what showed when Heart's Cry caught him off guard.
Re: #58
Well, look at how Tap Dance City [a famous front-runner known for wire-to-wire wins] used to lead — for that kind of near-the-front, wire-to-wire pattern, a pure closer like Deep Impact often can't get there in time at a track like Nakayama.
If you gather up the greatest-ever class, that's exactly what happens against greatest-ever rivals.
There's no room for a leisurely wide sweep on the outside, so good course selection becomes an even bigger advantage.
Well, look at how Tap Dance City [a famous front-runner known for wire-to-wire wins] used to lead — for that kind of near-the-front, wire-to-wire pattern, a pure closer like Deep Impact often can't get there in time at a track like Nakayama.
If you gather up the greatest-ever class, that's exactly what happens against greatest-ever rivals.
There's no room for a leisurely wide sweep on the outside, so good course selection becomes an even bigger advantage.
Well, there's also a lot of faith in Deep Impact within the breeding industry.
Though personally I think Orfevre, with his Arc runner-up finish, was actually the stronger horse.
Deep Impact's grandsons have gotten so weak that breeders are starting to shift toward the Tide bloodline instead.
Though personally I think Orfevre, with his Arc runner-up finish, was actually the stronger horse.
Deep Impact's grandsons have gotten so weak that breeders are starting to shift toward the Tide bloodline instead.
Re: #61
There's a horse called 'Ebayan' who's basically the strongest one out there, though.
There's a horse called 'Ebayan' who's basically the strongest one out there, though.
Why did Oguri Cap set off such an insane boom in the first place?
Re: #74
Honestly, there's no one clean reason that explains a boom like that.
Same with something like Demon Slayer — nobody can really explain why it sold as much as it did either.
It's not simply that something's good, so it sells big.
You can point to vague factors — the anime's animation being amazing, or it lining up with the COVID era — but nothing you can say for certain.
If I had to guess, Oguri Cap's era was the bubble economy, so the whole country had money to spend but there was way less entertainment around than today — so Oguri Cap just happened to land at the right moment.
Honestly, there's no one clean reason that explains a boom like that.
Same with something like Demon Slayer — nobody can really explain why it sold as much as it did either.
It's not simply that something's good, so it sells big.
You can point to vague factors — the anime's animation being amazing, or it lining up with the COVID era — but nothing you can say for certain.
If I had to guess, Oguri Cap's era was the bubble economy, so the whole country had money to spend but there was way less entertainment around than today — so Oguri Cap just happened to land at the right moment.
Visual impact matters a lot.
That kind of dramatic overtaking move is easy to get hyped about even if you know nothing about racing.
That kind of dramatic overtaking move is easy to get hyped about even if you know nothing about racing.
Re: #77
A big wire-to-wire runaway or a dramatic charge from the back is what's easiest to understand and get hyped about.
The classic front-running type that just grinds out a win no matter the situation is more reliably strong, but yeah, it's admittedly harder to appreciate.
A big wire-to-wire runaway or a dramatic charge from the back is what's easiest to understand and get hyped about.
The classic front-running type that just grinds out a win no matter the situation is more reliably strong, but yeah, it's admittedly harder to appreciate.
If aliens from Planet Horse Racing showed up and you had to pick a champion to send out, Orfevre's a bit… eh.
Re: #78
Well, the middle and long distances have a lot of competition.
But for sprints or the mile, if you asked people to name their top 3, the rankings might differ but the actual horses picked would overlap a lot.
Well, the middle and long distances have a lot of competition.
But for sprints or the mile, if you asked people to name their top 3, the rankings might differ but the actual horses picked would overlap a lot.
Can't we just settle it with track records?
Re: #81
Orfevre doesn't actually have any record-breaking wins.
Orfevre doesn't actually have any record-breaking wins.
Imported sire × imported dam.
Is that really the crystallization of Japanese horse racing people make it out to be?
Is that really the crystallization of Japanese horse racing people make it out to be?
Re: #82
People do say that, and yeah, it's a fair point either way.
And 20 years later, sires have mostly become domestically bred anyway.
Still, Deep Impact and Wind in Her Hair did become a cornerstone of modern Japanese racing.
People do say that, and yeah, it's a fair point either way.
And 20 years later, sires have mostly become domestically bred anyway.
Still, Deep Impact and Wind in Her Hair did become a cornerstone of modern Japanese racing.
Are the Deep Impact haters on the horse-racing board planning to stick around until his bloodline dies out completely?
There are horses with racing records on par with Deep Impact, even some who performed better than him.
But compared to those horses, his record as a sire is on a completely different level.
But compared to those horses, his record as a sire is on a completely different level.
Re: #101
True, he was the first to do that at the Arc de Triomphe.
True, he was the first to do that at the Arc de Triomphe.
Background and Key Points of This Discussion
Deep Impact swept an unbeaten Triple Crown in 2005 (the Satsuki Sho, Japanese Derby, and Kikuka Sho), then went on as a sire to produce a string of Grade 1 winners including Contrail, Gran Alegria, and Gentildonna, posting one of the greatest sire records in Japanese racing history. Where the thread split was over whether a racehorse’s “greatest ever” status should be judged purely by racing results, or should also weigh its lasting genetic influence as a sire. Finishing times can’t be simply compared across generations because of track-condition factors like unusually fast surfaces, so it’s a common misconception that records alone can settle who was better. Oguri Cap, brought up as the most popular horse in history, is discussed on a different axis — mass popular appeal — separate from the debate over sheer strength.
※This article is compiled and summarized from the 5ch (Nandemo Jikkyo G) thread “Why Deep Impact Is Still Called Japan’s Strongest Racehorse.”
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