In response to a company’s remark that “we don’t need people who just wait to be told what to do,” 5ch saw a wave of pushback: “Isn’t this just about wanting obedient people?” and “In the end, they’re only ever picking people who’ll do as they’re told.” At the same time, the thread developed into a broader debate over the line between asking for instructions and simply consulting someone, with comments like “For new kinds of work, both senpai and newbies alike start from zero experience” and “It’s the company’s fault for not clearly defining the scope of discretion.”
That's a textbook case of a "double bind," a classic form of power harassment.
It's not just something society does — parents pull this on their kids too.
Bottom line: while they say they don't want order-takers, in practice they only ever pick the ones who'll just do what they're told.
When a task comes up that neither senpai nor newbie has ever done before — like working with a new client or rolling out new equipment —
the senpai's experience with that specific task is exactly zero, same as the newbie's, so what good does it do asking the senpai for instructions?
Normally you'd think about what to do based on your past experience, wouldn't you?
It's exactly the first-time stuff you should be asking about.
Taking responsibility for that is the senpai's job, isn't it?
You're saying the exact same thing as the useless, do-nothing 40- and 50-somethings at my workplace.
At temp agencies and outsourcing contractors, you're only allowed to do what you're told, right?
That's why there's no failure there — but also absolutely no growth.
What do you do when a task comes up that your past experience doesn't apply to?
That's exactly when you ask the people around you or your boss.
That's where the gap between competent and incompetent shows.
Isn't the senpai just going to go ask someone even higher up anyway?
For work like that, the company should first check with higher-ups whether it can even be handled at all.
It's a question of whether to take it on in the first place.
Sounds like something a poser who did some half-baked reading about stocks would say lol
Those days are over, old-timer.
These days, if the company doesn't explain everything from step 1 to step 10, that's on the company.
Classic case of it being the company's fault for not clearly defining the scope of that discretion.
"Never done it before, so I don't know. Can't do it."
↓
Work piles up on the people who actually can do it
↓
The capable ones get sick of it and move on to work that actually suits them
↓
Only the incapable ones are left
I guess it's like this everywhere, to a greater or lesser degree.
There's a huge gap between people who think about what to do and act on it, and people who just quietly grind through routine tasks thinking "someone else will sort it out."
At my company:
Could do it if they tried, but won't
(Actually, they don't have the ability, so really they can't)
↓
Work doesn't pile up on the people who can do it — it piles up on the people who try hard even though they can't
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A handful of people burn themselves out trying to keep up
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They bring in temp staff and foreign workers, but training still falls on the same overworked people
↓
No training program exists, so no one grows, and they quit
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Ends up worse than before ← we are here
Nobody said "don't consult people" — the whole point was "don't just wait around for instructions." The fact that you guys keep countering with "you should ask/consult" means you're already off base.
18 Still-Kicking Anonymous 2026/08/23 (Sun) 11:34:34.63 ID:LDMIzBiVM
The moment you assume your senpai has already laid out all the rules and workflows for you, you're basically a baby.
When a task comes up that neither senpai nor newbie has ever done before — like working with a new client or rolling out new equipment —
the senpai's experience with that specific task is exactly zero, same as the newbie's, so what good does it do asking the senpai for instructions?
↑
That's literally saying not to ask for instructions.
Well, what came through loud and clear is that you don't understand the difference between "consulting" and "asking for instructions."
Because they're the same thing.
but every time in the "report" part I ask "how should I handle this customer?", my garbage boss started telling me to think for myself.
I'm on crap pay, so I genuinely don't want to have to think that hard about it.
Yeah, I get that.
If there's not even a single manual for troubles you'd expect on the job, that says something about the company too.
Just come up with one or two response options yourself and then report them.
A boss who asks "which one should we go with?" and then turns around and says "you decide and take responsibility" is a garbage boss.
Turning that into something concrete is the most annoying part.
I've heard it said that, generally speaking, figuring out what the actual problem even is is the hardest part.
Also heard that creating a problem is harder than solving one.
When they tell everyone to come up with their own improvement proposals for the issues, there's no way I'm doing that seriously.
If you actually answer that honestly, you're just tightening the noose around your own neck — it's pointless.
The ones who step up and shoulder that responsibility even while young are the ones who get promoted; the ones who don't are the ones who miss out.
Guys like you are throwing away chances right in front of you.
Why can't you see it as your shot to leapfrog those unreliable 40- and 50-somethings and climb above them?
You can hire as many just-doing-the-motions types who won't try to leapfrog anyone as you want, but people hungry enough to actually go for it are rare.
This has drifted from the point about senior people bearing more responsibility than newbies, but whatever.
By the way, I get paid less than those senpai but I outrank them. Doesn't make any sense, does it?
Boss: "You don't need to check every little thing like that! Use your head!"
Me: "I've gotten this far with it."
Boss: "Report-contact-consult first, remember?"
What am I even supposed to do…
Just say that exact thing straight to someone even higher up.
It's your own fault for not at least pretending to work while slacking off.
Smart people are good at faking like they're working.
It's the clueless ones who end up resented.
This right here is exactly the worst-case version of the "order-taker."
Background and Key Points
The friction here sits on top of a specific piece of Japanese workplace vocabulary: hou-ren-sou (報連相), the shorthand for “houkoku-renraku-soudan” (report-contact-consult), a norm drilled into new hires from their first week that structures almost all upward communication in Japanese firms. It exists precisely because the traditional model paired lifelong employment with strict senpai-kouhai hierarchies, where juniors were expected to defer to seniors’ accumulated experience rather than act unilaterally. The post arguing that “従業員” (juugyouin, someone engaged to perform duties) is the accurate term and “社員” (shain) technically means executives is a real, if pedantic, distinction some Japanese speakers raise to puncture the idea that regular staff should feel ownership over the company’s problems.
The thread doesn’t actually split over whether initiative is good; nearly everyone agrees waiting passively is bad. It splits over whether “consulting” (soudan) and “asking for instructions” (shiji wo aogu) are meaningfully different acts, and over who bears the cost when a task has no precedent: the poster in #18/#49 says senpai have zero relevant experience so asking them is pointless, while #33 and #79 insist that consulting a senpai — even one who’s never done the specific task — is precisely how responsibility is supposed to work.
What the thread never engages with is the incentive side: several posts describe pay that doesn’t scale with the added discretion or risk being demanded of them, which is the more common structural complaint in Japanese labor commentary about this exact “self-starter” rhetoric — companies asking for managerial judgment while keeping entry-level compensation and without formal authority to back it up.
※This article excerpts and summarizes the 5ch (Nanademo Jikkyo G board) thread “Company: “We don’t need people who wait to be told what to do. We want people who can find their own work, solve problems, and contribute to the company.”“
