In response to a company’s remark that “we don’t need people who just wait to be told what to do,” 5ch saw a wave of pushback: “Isn’t this just about wanting obedient people?” and “In the end, they’re only ever picking people who’ll do as they’re told.” At the same time, the thread developed into a broader debate over the line between asking for instructions and simply consulting someone, with comments like “For new kinds of work, both senpai and newbies alike start from zero experience” and “It’s the company’s fault for not clearly defining the scope of discretion.”
Is there even a point being at that company anymore?
And yet if you act on your own initiative, they get mad at you anyway.
>>7
That's a textbook case of a "double bind," a classic form of power harassment.
It's not just something society does — parents pull this on their kids too.
Bottom line: while they say they don't want order-takers, in practice they only ever pick the ones who'll just do what they're told.
That's a textbook case of a "double bind," a classic form of power harassment.
It's not just something society does — parents pull this on their kids too.
Bottom line: while they say they don't want order-takers, in practice they only ever pick the ones who'll just do what they're told.
The moment you assume your senpai has already laid out all the rules and workflows for you, you're basically a baby.
When a task comes up that neither senpai nor newbie has ever done before — like working with a new client or rolling out new equipment —
the senpai's experience with that specific task is exactly zero, same as the newbie's, so what good does it do asking the senpai for instructions?
When a task comes up that neither senpai nor newbie has ever done before — like working with a new client or rolling out new equipment —
the senpai's experience with that specific task is exactly zero, same as the newbie's, so what good does it do asking the senpai for instructions?
>>18
Normally you'd think about what to do based on your past experience, wouldn't you?
Normally you'd think about what to do based on your past experience, wouldn't you?
>>18
It's exactly the first-time stuff you should be asking about.
It's exactly the first-time stuff you should be asking about.
>>18
Taking responsibility for that is the senpai's job, isn't it?
You're saying the exact same thing as the useless, do-nothing 40- and 50-somethings at my workplace.
Taking responsibility for that is the senpai's job, isn't it?
You're saying the exact same thing as the useless, do-nothing 40- and 50-somethings at my workplace.
Some companies actually want order-takers.
>>19
At temp agencies and outsourcing contractors, you're only allowed to do what you're told, right?
That's why there's no failure there — but also absolutely no growth.
At temp agencies and outsourcing contractors, you're only allowed to do what you're told, right?
That's why there's no failure there — but also absolutely no growth.
>>20
What do you do when a task comes up that your past experience doesn't apply to?
What do you do when a task comes up that your past experience doesn't apply to?
>>30
That's exactly when you ask the people around you or your boss.
That's where the gap between competent and incompetent shows.
That's exactly when you ask the people around you or your boss.
That's where the gap between competent and incompetent shows.
>>30
Isn't the senpai just going to go ask someone even higher up anyway?
Isn't the senpai just going to go ask someone even higher up anyway?
>>30
For work like that, the company should first check with higher-ups whether it can even be handled at all.
It's a question of whether to take it on in the first place.
For work like that, the company should first check with higher-ups whether it can even be handled at all.
It's a question of whether to take it on in the first place.
In the first place, you're called a "従業員" (employee, literally "personnel engaged in duties") because that's what you do. The commonly misused term "社員" (company member) technically only refers to people at director/executive level and above.
>>37
Sounds like something a poser who did some half-baked reading about stocks would say lol
Sounds like something a poser who did some half-baked reading about stocks would say lol
The problem is people who can't do anything unless it's spelled out from step 1 to step 10, when really you should just get the overview and handle the rest with your own judgment.
>>41
Those days are over, old-timer.
These days, if the company doesn't explain everything from step 1 to step 10, that's on the company.
Those days are over, old-timer.
These days, if the company doesn't explain everything from step 1 to step 10, that's on the company.
>>41
Classic case of it being the company's fault for not clearly defining the scope of that discretion.
Classic case of it being the company's fault for not clearly defining the scope of that discretion.
My coworkers' catchphrase:
"Never done it before, so I don't know. Can't do it."
↓
Work piles up on the people who actually can do it
↓
The capable ones get sick of it and move on to work that actually suits them
↓
Only the incapable ones are left
"Never done it before, so I don't know. Can't do it."
↓
Work piles up on the people who actually can do it
↓
The capable ones get sick of it and move on to work that actually suits them
↓
Only the incapable ones are left
>>42
I guess it's like this everywhere, to a greater or lesser degree.
There's a huge gap between people who think about what to do and act on it, and people who just quietly grind through routine tasks thinking "someone else will sort it out."
I guess it's like this everywhere, to a greater or lesser degree.
There's a huge gap between people who think about what to do and act on it, and people who just quietly grind through routine tasks thinking "someone else will sort it out."
>>42
At my company:
Could do it if they tried, but won't
(Actually, they don't have the ability, so really they can't)
↓
Work doesn't pile up on the people who can do it — it piles up on the people who try hard even though they can't
↓
A handful of people burn themselves out trying to keep up
↓
They bring in temp staff and foreign workers, but training still falls on the same overworked people
↓
No training program exists, so no one grows, and they quit
↓
Ends up worse than before ← we are here
At my company:
Could do it if they tried, but won't
(Actually, they don't have the ability, so really they can't)
↓
Work doesn't pile up on the people who can do it — it piles up on the people who try hard even though they can't
↓
A handful of people burn themselves out trying to keep up
↓
They bring in temp staff and foreign workers, but training still falls on the same overworked people
↓
No training program exists, so no one grows, and they quit
↓
Ends up worse than before ← we are here
>>23,33,35
Nobody said "don't consult people" — the whole point was "don't just wait around for instructions." The fact that you guys keep countering with "you should ask/consult" means you're already off base.
Nobody said "don't consult people" — the whole point was "don't just wait around for instructions." The fact that you guys keep countering with "you should ask/consult" means you're already off base.
>>46
18 Still-Kicking Anonymous 2026/08/23 (Sun) 11:34:34.63 ID:LDMIzBiVM
The moment you assume your senpai has already laid out all the rules and workflows for you, you're basically a baby.
When a task comes up that neither senpai nor newbie has ever done before — like working with a new client or rolling out new equipment —
the senpai's experience with that specific task is exactly zero, same as the newbie's, so what good does it do asking the senpai for instructions?
↑
That's literally saying not to ask for instructions.
18 Still-Kicking Anonymous 2026/08/23 (Sun) 11:34:34.63 ID:LDMIzBiVM
The moment you assume your senpai has already laid out all the rules and workflows for you, you're basically a baby.
When a task comes up that neither senpai nor newbie has ever done before — like working with a new client or rolling out new equipment —
the senpai's experience with that specific task is exactly zero, same as the newbie's, so what good does it do asking the senpai for instructions?
↑
That's literally saying not to ask for instructions.
>>49
Well, what came through loud and clear is that you don't understand the difference between "consulting" and "asking for instructions."
Well, what came through loud and clear is that you don't understand the difference between "consulting" and "asking for instructions."
>>58
Because they're the same thing.
Because they're the same thing.
I do my hou-ren-sou (report/contact/consult) properly,
but every time in the "report" part I ask "how should I handle this customer?", my garbage boss started telling me to think for myself.
I'm on crap pay, so I genuinely don't want to have to think that hard about it.
but every time in the "report" part I ask "how should I handle this customer?", my garbage boss started telling me to think for myself.
I'm on crap pay, so I genuinely don't want to have to think that hard about it.
>>68
Yeah, I get that.
If there's not even a single manual for troubles you'd expect on the job, that says something about the company too.
Yeah, I get that.
If there's not even a single manual for troubles you'd expect on the job, that says something about the company too.
>>68
Just come up with one or two response options yourself and then report them.
A boss who asks "which one should we go with?" and then turns around and says "you decide and take responsibility" is a garbage boss.
Just come up with one or two response options yourself and then report them.
A boss who asks "which one should we go with?" and then turns around and says "you decide and take responsibility" is a garbage boss.
Finding the tasks or problems that need doing is easy.
Turning that into something concrete is the most annoying part.
Turning that into something concrete is the most annoying part.
>>70
I've heard it said that, generally speaking, figuring out what the actual problem even is is the hardest part.
Also heard that creating a problem is harder than solving one.
I've heard it said that, generally speaking, figuring out what the actual problem even is is the hardest part.
Also heard that creating a problem is harder than solving one.
>>70
When they tell everyone to come up with their own improvement proposals for the issues, there's no way I'm doing that seriously.
If you actually answer that honestly, you're just tightening the noose around your own neck — it's pointless.
When they tell everyone to come up with their own improvement proposals for the issues, there's no way I'm doing that seriously.
If you actually answer that honestly, you're just tightening the noose around your own neck — it's pointless.
>>79
The ones who step up and shoulder that responsibility even while young are the ones who get promoted; the ones who don't are the ones who miss out.
Guys like you are throwing away chances right in front of you.
Why can't you see it as your shot to leapfrog those unreliable 40- and 50-somethings and climb above them?
The ones who step up and shoulder that responsibility even while young are the ones who get promoted; the ones who don't are the ones who miss out.
Guys like you are throwing away chances right in front of you.
Why can't you see it as your shot to leapfrog those unreliable 40- and 50-somethings and climb above them?
>>84
You can hire as many just-doing-the-motions types who won't try to leapfrog anyone as you want, but people hungry enough to actually go for it are rare.
You can hire as many just-doing-the-motions types who won't try to leapfrog anyone as you want, but people hungry enough to actually go for it are rare.
>>84
This has drifted from the point about senior people bearing more responsibility than newbies, but whatever.
By the way, I get paid less than those senpai but I outrank them. Doesn't make any sense, does it?
This has drifted from the point about senior people bearing more responsibility than newbies, but whatever.
By the way, I get paid less than those senpai but I outrank them. Doesn't make any sense, does it?
Me: "Is it okay if I go ahead with this approach?"
Boss: "You don't need to check every little thing like that! Use your head!"
Me: "I've gotten this far with it."
Boss: "Report-contact-consult first, remember?"
What am I even supposed to do…
Boss: "You don't need to check every little thing like that! Use your head!"
Me: "I've gotten this far with it."
Boss: "Report-contact-consult first, remember?"
What am I even supposed to do…
>>95
Just say that exact thing straight to someone even higher up.
Just say that exact thing straight to someone even higher up.
Got told off for slacking off when there was no work to do — but the real problem is whoever isn't assigning work in the first place.
>>145
It's your own fault for not at least pretending to work while slacking off.
It's your own fault for not at least pretending to work while slacking off.
>>145
Smart people are good at faking like they're working.
It's the clueless ones who end up resented.
Smart people are good at faking like they're working.
It's the clueless ones who end up resented.
>>145
This right here is exactly the worst-case version of the "order-taker."
This right here is exactly the worst-case version of the "order-taker."
※This article excerpts and summarizes the 5ch (Nanademo Jikkyo G board) thread “Company: “We don’t need people who wait to be told what to do. We want people who can find their own work, solve problems, and contribute to the company.”“
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