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The story
A thread revisiting the trading card game “hegemony wars” popped up on 5ch’s Hardware/Industry (Geha) board. Posters clashed over whether Yu-Gi-Oh! and Duel Masters ever truly dominated the market, and over exactly when Pokémon Cards caught fire in popularity. The discussion also touched on the standing of Magic: The Gathering — widely regarded as the granddaddy of overseas TCGs — and aired plenty of gripes about how each card game company runs its business. One post even dropped a concrete figure: around 2015-2016, Pokémon Card sales were reportedly lower than Buddyfight’s, pushing the debate well beyond a simple popularity contest.
What people said
The fate of anyone who dares challenge Nintendo
Can't speak for Duel Masters, but Yu-Gi-Oh! is still doing decently well.
(Try getting your hands on those anniversary packs — good luck with that.)
(Try getting your hands on those anniversary packs — good luck with that.)
Re: #2
You basically can't buy Pokémon Cards normally anymore.
Don't underestimate how popular Nintendo is.
You basically can't buy Pokémon Cards normally anymore.
Don't underestimate how popular Nintendo is.
The "answer" is simple: back when Yu-Gi-Oh! was huge, literally nobody was playing Pokémon Cards.
Re: #4
Yu-Gi-Oh! was "huge"??????????? lolololololololol
You mean back in "Barrier Statue Land" or wherever that was??????????? lolololololololol (a sarcastic jab implying Yu-Gi-Oh!'s "popularity" was more niche/obscure than claimed)
Yu-Gi-Oh! was "huge"??????????? lolololololololol
You mean back in "Barrier Statue Land" or wherever that was??????????? lolololololololol (a sarcastic jab implying Yu-Gi-Oh!'s "popularity" was more niche/obscure than claimed)
To begin with, Pokémon Cards had the field all to itself first, then Yu-Gi-Oh! blew right past it, then Duel Masters rose up too,
and Pokémon Cards couldn't keep pace — it fell all the way down to the mid-to-lower tier. It's only now that it's won again.
and Pokémon Cards couldn't keep pace — it fell all the way down to the mid-to-lower tier. It's only now that it's won again.
Re: #15
"Pokémon Cards fell off," sure, keep telling yourself that~ lolololololololololololol
That's a real stretch…
"Pokémon Cards fell off," sure, keep telling yourself that~ lolololololololololololol
That's a real stretch…
Looks like some of you don't know the history.
First, overseas, there was "Magic: The Gathering" — that's the granddaddy of all TCGs.
The Yu-Gi-Oh! creator asked to use it in his manga, got turned down, and made his own original content instead — that became Yu-Gi-Oh!'s Duel Monsters, which set off a huge boom in Japan.
Pokémon was actually one of the later arrivals after that.
Well, I'll admit Yu-Gi-Oh! has faded into obscurity these days and Pokémon's the one getting all the attention now, though.
First, overseas, there was "Magic: The Gathering" — that's the granddaddy of all TCGs.
The Yu-Gi-Oh! creator asked to use it in his manga, got turned down, and made his own original content instead — that became Yu-Gi-Oh!'s Duel Monsters, which set off a huge boom in Japan.
Pokémon was actually one of the later arrivals after that.
Well, I'll admit Yu-Gi-Oh! has faded into obscurity these days and Pokémon's the one getting all the attention now, though.
Re: #18
What is this guy even talking out of his ass about
Pokémon Cards actually predate the arrival of Magic & Wizards (Wizards of the Coast, MTG's publisher).
What is this guy even talking out of his ass about
Pokémon Cards actually predate the arrival of Magic & Wizards (Wizards of the Coast, MTG's publisher).
There's no card game that can beat Pokémon Cards.
It's been the original and the pinnacle for 30 years.
Everything else is just a knockoff.
It's been the original and the pinnacle for 30 years.
Everything else is just a knockoff.
Re: #20
Now THAT'S what you call "the thief talking tough" lol (an idiom for brazen hypocrisy — ironic since Pokémon itself came after MTG)
Now THAT'S what you call "the thief talking tough" lol (an idiom for brazen hypocrisy — ironic since Pokémon itself came after MTG)
Yu-Gi-Oh!'s rules are so overcomplicated I genuinely can't follow them.
If it were all handled digitally in a video game, fine, but doing it by hand on paper? I'm constantly amazed anyone can actually process all that.
I played MTG for about ten years, but eventually walked away because their sales model made zero sense.
Even the "same" pack comes in a bunch of variants, each priced differently, and it's all way too expensive to begin with.
At the end of the day, Pokémon's just the safest bet.
If it were all handled digitally in a video game, fine, but doing it by hand on paper? I'm constantly amazed anyone can actually process all that.
I played MTG for about ten years, but eventually walked away because their sales model made zero sense.
Even the "same" pack comes in a bunch of variants, each priced differently, and it's all way too expensive to begin with.
At the end of the day, Pokémon's just the safest bet.
Re: #27
Sure, it might be the "safe" choice, but isn't it a problem that scalper demand means you can't even easily buy a regular pack anymore?
Cheap singles are nice, but that doesn't give you the joy of actually cracking a pack open.
Sure, it might be the "safe" choice, but isn't it a problem that scalper demand means you can't even easily buy a regular pack anymore?
Cheap singles are nice, but that doesn't give you the joy of actually cracking a pack open.
Re: #27
It's NOT handled fine by hand.
Rule violations happen practically every time, even in tournament finals.
It's NOT handled fine by hand.
Rule violations happen practically every time, even in tournament finals.
Could you spare a thought for the Digimon Card Game every once in a while too, please?
Re: #34
I bought the original starter deck but I don't remember the rules anymore.
Looks like the reboot's doing reasonably well though.
I bought the original starter deck but I don't remember the rules anymore.
Looks like the reboot's doing reasonably well though.
Pokémon Cards were already in the planning stages before Yu-Gi-Oh! even started serialization, so…
Re: #35
It's well known that Yu-Gi-Oh! copied Pokémon.
It's well known that Yu-Gi-Oh! copied Pokémon.
You really don't want to get Nintendo mad at you — their legal department could crush you in one shot if they got serious.
Yu-Gi-Oh! in the 2000s was good because turns actually passed back and forth properly.
They've power-crept it so hard without limit that turns barely even happen anymore —
cards act during the opponent's turn and everything, so the whole concept of a "turn-based" card game has basically dissolved.
They've power-crept it so hard without limit that turns barely even happen anymore —
cards act during the opponent's turn and everything, so the whole concept of a "turn-based" card game has basically dissolved.
Isn't it because you can build a deck that beats adults on just a kid's allowance?
Re: #45
That might actually be it.
Being able to buy a meta deck for 5,000 yen makes it easy to get started.
That might actually be it.
Being able to buy a meta deck for 5,000 yen makes it easy to get started.
Re: #44
They power-creep things, slap a ton of bans/restrictions on afterward, then print even more power-crept cards.
I can only assume the designers are idiots.
They power-creep things, slap a ton of bans/restrictions on afterward, then print even more power-crept cards.
I can only assume the designers are idiots.
Re: #48
Well, that's unavoidable.
If people could get by without buying new stuff, it'd be bad for business.
They have to engineer situations where you can't win without buying in, one way or another.
Still, I do think they could at least pre-ban cards before release.
Well, that's unavoidable.
If people could get by without buying new stuff, it'd be bad for business.
They have to engineer situations where you can't win without buying in, one way or another.
Still, I do think they could at least pre-ban cards before release.
Re: #76
That's exactly why — if they'd nailed down the rules properly from the very start, it wouldn't have turned into a pointless power-creep arms race.
The whole thing is based on a card game the original manga author threw together in a rush under a tight deadline, just for use inside the comic — so its fate was basically sealed from day one.
What I really can't wrap my head around is MTG falling off, though…
How does a company that specializes in card games end up in this state?
That's exactly why — if they'd nailed down the rules properly from the very start, it wouldn't have turned into a pointless power-creep arms race.
The whole thing is based on a card game the original manga author threw together in a rush under a tight deadline, just for use inside the comic — so its fate was basically sealed from day one.
What I really can't wrap my head around is MTG falling off, though…
How does a company that specializes in card games end up in this state?
Re: #76
If they'd properly run power cycles and kept things on an even keel, they could've paced it out much more slowly.
Ramping up the power creep without thinking it through at all was just dumb.
If they'd properly run power cycles and kept things on an even keel, they could've paced it out much more slowly.
Ramping up the power creep without thinking it through at all was just dumb.
The worst thing about Yu-Gi-Oh! is that they create an archetype and then abandon 90% of them.
Only the operators' pet favorites ever get decent new cards.
Some archetypes get new support every single year, while others get left to rot for over a decade without a second thought.
Only the operators' pet favorites ever get decent new cards.
Some archetypes get new support every single year, while others get left to rot for over a decade without a second thought.
Re: #49
I used the Kyokusei ("Pole Star") archetype like crazy back in middle school,
and when they finally gave it the "Bifrost" support card,
the effect ended up being completely useless.
At this point I can only assume they gave up on the whole archetype.
I used the Kyokusei ("Pole Star") archetype like crazy back in middle school,
and when they finally gave it the "Bifrost" support card,
the effect ended up being completely useless.
At this point I can only assume they gave up on the whole archetype.
Re: #47
Hard to say since it's a different era,
but isn't that way pricier than old-school Yu-Gi-Oh! used to be?
Hard to say since it's a different era,
but isn't that way pricier than old-school Yu-Gi-Oh! used to be?
Re: #50
These days a single "Goemon" card in Yu-Gi-Oh! goes for like 6,000 yen on its own, so…
These days a single "Goemon" card in Yu-Gi-Oh! goes for like 6,000 yen on its own, so…
MTG: Keeps cranking out collabs — the blatant cash grab is obvious.
Yu-Gi-Oh!: Keeps dropping serial-numbered rares — the blatant cash grab is obvious.
Duel Masters: Same as always, for better or worse.
Pokémon Cards: Started requiring My Number (Japan's national ID) verification, but still leaves way too much up to individual retailers.
One Piece Card Game: Gotten absurdly overpriced from being used for money laundering, but funny enough nobody treats it as a real problem since it barely has an actual player base.
Yu-Gi-Oh!: Keeps dropping serial-numbered rares — the blatant cash grab is obvious.
Duel Masters: Same as always, for better or worse.
Pokémon Cards: Started requiring My Number (Japan's national ID) verification, but still leaves way too much up to individual retailers.
One Piece Card Game: Gotten absurdly overpriced from being used for money laundering, but funny enough nobody treats it as a real problem since it barely has an actual player base.
Re: #60
MTG's parent company is in bad shape with nothing else selling well, so MTG's stuck carrying the losses from all its parent's other failures too — there's no stopping the blatant cash grab at this point.
MTG's parent company is in bad shape with nothing else selling well, so MTG's stuck carrying the losses from all its parent's other failures too — there's no stopping the blatant cash grab at this point.
Why did Pokémon Cards suddenly get so popular out of nowhere?
It was stuck in a slump for a pretty long time after release, wasn't it?
It was stuck in a slump for a pretty long time after release, wasn't it?
Re: #61
Up through the XY era it was in this bizarre state where the sleeves were more popular than the actual cards.
Lillie was the turning point.
Up through the XY era it was in this bizarre state where the sleeves were more popular than the actual cards.
Lillie was the turning point.
Re: #61
I started Pokémon Cards around that same boom, and I think a big factor was YouTubers actually playing matches and showcasing decks — it made it easy to jump in thinking "guess I'll try this deck out."
I started Pokémon Cards around that same boom, and I think a big factor was YouTubers actually playing matches and showcasing decks — it made it easy to jump in thinking "guess I'll try this deck out."
Re: #61
The current boom kicked off when an American YouTuber won a one-of-a-kind Pokémon card at auction for 800 million yen and landed in the Guinness World Records.
The current boom kicked off when an American YouTuber won a one-of-a-kind Pokémon card at auction for 800 million yen and landed in the Guinness World Records.
Huh? It's not over though? Hasbro's toy division has bottomed out and is back to growth.
Of course, MTG, Monopoly GO, and Baldur's Gate 3 are what carried the company through to get there, sure.
Of course, MTG, Monopoly GO, and Baldur's Gate 3 are what carried the company through to get there, sure.
Re: #75
It's NOT actually growing — that's why they're forcing the release pace up, shipping sets with barely any balancing, slapping bans on cards left and right, and botching designs.
Half of every pack is now basically contaminated with collabs, and the yearly release pace might be the highest it's ever been.
They started previewing a set that's two releases ahead before even finishing previews for the current one — that's genuinely unhinged.
It's NOT actually growing — that's why they're forcing the release pace up, shipping sets with barely any balancing, slapping bans on cards left and right, and botching designs.
Half of every pack is now basically contaminated with collabs, and the yearly release pace might be the highest it's ever been.
They started previewing a set that's two releases ahead before even finishing previews for the current one — that's genuinely unhinged.
Bet you didn't know this, but back in 2015-2016,
Pokémon Cards' annual sales were actually lower than Buddyfight's.
Pokémon Cards' annual sales were actually lower than Buddyfight's.
Re: #82
Wasn't that around the time they went to Bushiroad for advice?
Wasn't that around the time they went to Bushiroad for advice?
Background and Key Points of the Debate
To lay out the TCG timeline: the granddaddy of the genre, Magic: The Gathering, launched in the US in 1993; Pokémon Cards arrived in Japan in 1996; the Yu-Gi-Oh! OCG followed in 1999; and Duel Masters in 2002. In the thread, the claim that “nobody was playing Pokémon Cards back when Yu-Gi-Oh! was at its peak” clashed with the counter-argument that “Pokémon Cards were actually planned before Yu-Gi-Oh!’s serialization even began” — and which era you measure from changes the whole picture. Posters pointed to things like a YouTuber auctioning off a high-priced card and social-media deck showcases as reasons for Pokémon Cards’ recent resurgence, but that overlaps with the resale/speculation boom of the 2020s onward — a market dynamic quite different from the structure of Yu-Gi-Oh!’s heyday. It’s also worth noting, something the thread itself didn’t get into, that differences in capital scale and sales strategy among each brand’s parent company (the Nintendo group, Konami, Takara Tomy, and Hasbro in the US) likely play a role in these long-term ups and downs as well.
*This article is excerpted and summarized from the 5ch (Hardware/Industry (Geha)) thread “[Hegemony] Why Couldn’t Yu-Gi-Oh! or Duel Masters Beat Reigning Champion Pokémon Cards?“.
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