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The story
In China, a historical novel starring Tokugawa Ieyasu has become a massive hit, reportedly hailing him as “the greatest figure in Japanese history, surpassing even Nobunaga and Hideyoshi.” The BBC in Britain also produced a special program on Ieyasu, praising his achievements as “comparable to Caesar’s.” A thread that opened with this news sparked discussion of the gap between his glowing reputation abroad and his lukewarm image at home in Japan, where he’s often dismissed as a “crafty old fox” who merely “snatched the rice cake others had pounded.” Opinions among 5ch users were divided, citing factors like the Meiji government’s founding stance of delegitimizing the Edo shogunate, the tendency for post-unification rulers to make for duller stories than Sengoku-era heroes, and comparisons with Hideyoshi — while others pointed to concrete achievements like Edo’s flood-control works and the red-seal trading ships that continued even under national seclusion.
What people said
The BBC in Britain even produced a lengthy program celebrating Ieyasu, showering him with the highest praise as an achievement "comparable to Caesar's."
Given how highly he's regarded overseas, why is Ieyasu so unpopular and underrated back home in Japan?
There was a postwar trend of hyping up Hideyoshi, but in the end it's always Nobunaga.
In reality his work building up the governing system was probably amazing, though.
Also, in Japan the Sengoku era tends to get celebrated as a time when regional heroes really stood out, and a turbulent era naturally produces more dramatic episodes, so it's easy for it to be popular.
The Edo period, which ended all that and centralized power, tends to end up less popular by comparison.
Though honestly, I think ordinary people probably had a lot to be grateful for in the Edo period.
Japan afterward never tried to emulate the Tokugawa at all — you can really feel the gap in appreciation there.
Apparently a lot of Chinese fans of Gundam SEED and isekai reincarnation stories are drawn to the same kind of narrative — an overwhelmingly talented, charismatic visionary leading the masses.
If it weren't for the Tokugawa, the Japanese would be slaves to Westerners.
Without him, the age of chaos would've just dragged on for centuries longer.
I want to know how he even came up with that idea.
Having the sea at your back makes it easier to go on the offensive.
Edo was already a pretty significant strategic hub even before Ieyasu arrived.
The image of it being some empty backwater village is a myth born from a convenient overlap of interests: the Tokugawa side wanting to inflate Ieyasu's achievements, and the Kansai side wanting to write off the Kanto region as having never amounted to much.
Mikawa isn't Nagoya.
Yoritomo, Takauji, Ieyasu — they're all unpopular.
Because they actually succeeded, there's no more romance left to imagine.
People just prefer the tragic hero who dies partway through the journey — that classic underdog sympathy.
Funny how it's oddly appealing when a great man is crazy enough to be hated by other countries.
Setting aside the current 'Toyotomi Brothers' show, which portrayal of Hideyoshi do you like best? I'm a fan of the Muro Tsuyoshi version. (Muro Tsuyoshi is an actor who has played Hideyoshi on TV.)
It's pretty weird that anyone likes a scumbag who usurped his own lord's clan.
His governance was garbage too.
He built 300 years of a war-free era.
If they'd ruled for 300 years, they'd have run right into WWI.
Romance of the Three Kingdoms is popular in Japan too, but it's all
Guan Yu! Zhao Yun! Liu Bei! Cao Cao!
You never see anyone talking about Sima Yan.
The thing about Sima Yan is that after unification he abandoned governing, and Jin collapsed soon after — he's a distant cause of the whole bad ending.
Though his name is unmatched for coolness, meaning something like 'the flame that governs horses.'
Ieyasu just has that cowardly image.
Forget image — Hideyoshi's the genuinely cowardly one.
If you compare him to Chinese history, he's like Zhao Gao or Dong Zhuo.
Are you dumb?
Hideyoshi was just smart.
Ieyasu's a non-starter the moment you realize he only ever fought battles he was sure to win.
The smart ones were Hanbei, who was assigned to him as a subordinate by Nobunaga, and Kanbei, who only stuck around because he wanted to be close to the Oda. Hideyoshi himself was a low-IQ idiot, which is why things went the way they did once he took power.
Isn't it that his lone-wolf madness just looks better in contrast to Ieyasu, who was blessed with great vassals?
Ieyasu's reign was actually the golden age of red-seal ship trading.
It was a great age of commerce, with Japanese merchant towns springing up as far as Indonesia and Burma.
Background and Talking Points
The Edo shogunate that Tokugawa Ieyasu established lasted roughly 265 years, from 1603 to 1868. That’s a bit off from the “300 years” figure used in the thread, but it’s still true that this was an exceptionally long stretch of peace compared to contemporary dynasties in Europe or China. On the other hand, since the Meiji government was formed by overthrowing the Edo shogunate, there’s been little institutional motivation in education or media to actively celebrate the Tokugawa — and in historical dramas, “post-unification rulers” tend to make for less compelling stories than the heroes of the Sengoku era. What split the thread was really the yardstick used to judge Ieyasu himself: one camp sees him as someone who merely snatched up the realm that Nobunaga and Hideyoshi had already carved out, while the other sees him as the pragmatic administrator who built the institutions that secured a long peace. Neither view has been verified against primary sources — it’s worth keeping in mind that this is all image-based debate on 5ch. The same goes for the overseas reception described (the novel’s popularity in China, the BBC program) — these are presented as they appeared in the thread’s posts, and this article has not independently verified their accuracy.
*This article is compiled from excerpts and a summary of the 5ch (Nandemo Jikkyo G) thread “Chinese commenter: “Tokugawa Ieyasu is the greatest figure in Japanese history” — British commenter: “Ieyasu’s achievements rival even Caesar’s” — Japanese commenter: “…”.”
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